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tv   Charlie Rose  PBS  August 4, 2016 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT

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>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with a conversation with bill bratton as he steps down as commissioner of the new york city police department. >> i'll leave the legacy issues to the historians because as we know, it's usually best determined at a distance. in terms of my own sense of self that i think i have played a critical role in american policing over these 45 years, particularly over these last 25 in helping to move it into an embrace of community policing. >> rose: also this evening, two views on donald trump. first al hunt of bloomberg view. >> i've had both republicans and democrats say that you know, in 2000, if this is a democrat talking, i don't think was really qualified to be president
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and didn't worry me for the sake of the country. in 2008, i thought obama really lacked the reckless experience and knowledge to be president but i didn't worry about the country. people now, serious people who say that the possibility of donald trump in the whitehouse really really worries them about the country. i've never heard that before, charlie. >> rose: and then bob costa of "the washington post." >> he's not really making an argument in a political way. this is an isolated candidate, a defiant candidate who operates hour by hour, really without the advice of his advisors. he has advisors like paul manafort but this is someone navigating the political terrain on his own. it's an unusual situation for his party which is tagging along but this one candidate, one person dominating and deciding moment by moment. >> rose: bill bratton, al hunt and bob
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>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: the new york police department's commissioner bill bratton is here. the "new york times" describes him as the most widely recognized face in american policing who reshaped the image of what a police commander could be. he announced yesterday he would step down in september after a 45 year career in law enforcement. chief james o'neill veteran of the department will succeed him. bratton began as a beat cop in 1970 in boston and moved to lead
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the police department in boston, los angeles and new york where he first served under mayor rudolph giuliani. he reduced crime and healed racial tensions between police and minority communities. he spoke of his goals yesterday during a city hall press conference. >> when you see a policeman, and this is our goal, when you see a policeman, remember that he is your friend. that's the vision and the ideas that they share up here and that people carry forward. and that is happening but it doesn't happen over night. there are changes in many respks and we've seen the tide shift in that direction. it's a challenging time for police in america and new york even with all indicators pointing in the right direction. >> rose: commissioner bratton has been a frequent guest on this program, i'm pleased to have him back at this table at this time, welcome. >> good to be with you charlie. >> rose: you just said this is a difficult time to be a police commissioner. there are big challenges ahead. so why leave?
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>> it's time, for me personally and professionally. personally, i received an offer in the private sector, at a good time in my life to take advantage of it. and i'm going to look forward to going, joining a company. professionally the department, the new york city police department is in very good shape at this time, and i've worked very hard over these last several year to put in place a line of succession so that mayor bill de blasio would not have to reach outside the department ask disruption that would cause to replace me. jimmy e noel coming in behind me going on 25 years, an extraordinary individual. the right man at the right place at the right time. >> rose: and your recommendation to the mayor. >> that will be my recommendation. i had two recommendations. jimmy and there was ben tucker my first deputy commissioner, my first top people. the mayor after deliberation over the last several weeks i notified him on july 8th i was planning to leave, made the
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decision and notified jimmy o'neill about 16 hours before the press conference. >> rose: so you expect that there was continuity and there will not be any changes in terms of the direction you set. >> no changes, all in the direction that the team i have around me are all like minded. they are all smart as can be, with great ideas. but the overall direction that everybody's on board the same vessel. >> rose: there's one issue and we'll talk about many broken windows. what does that mean and why is it important to you and will it continue? >> there are two terms, broken windows, quality of life. broken windows refers fanatical in 1982 by george -- the late jim will con, the idea with little things will grow into big things. certainly in 1929 in his philosophy of policing the basic mission for which the police exists is to prevent crime and
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disorder. 70's and 80's in america under the appreciates we start focusing on the disorder. focusing on serious crime and we did not do a good job focusing on that because records grew proportionately. with my successful crown i think it was successful, new york, los angeles, is i focused on both the minor things and the big things. the minor things are the so-called broken windows, street prostitution, street narcotics. graffiti, abandoned cars, things that people see every day. even the most crime-ridden ut they kre victims of thet neighborhoods. >> rose: it's an optic. >> it's an up tech but it's an optic that generates a heeling. the current controversy about homeless on the streets, street people. in every major american city is an optic. people see that, they are disturbed by it. in our city, new york city, the city we love there's great concern about that. it's no where near where it was back in the 90's. half the population in new york
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today were here in the 90's. >> rose: was there any opposition to the idea or the term by the minority communities. >> the last several years has seen as part of the growth of a sentiment in many minority communities that broken windows was disproportionately being applied to them, quality of life enforcement. but the point i make is the disproportionate amount of time that police spend in poor neighborhoods, often times minority neighborhoods is due to two things. one, the high crime rates there which are disproportionately higher than many other areas in most american cities. but also the disproportionate amount of calls 311, 911 to come into those neighborhoods to assist. we ignore those calls. the idea that proportionately, well you're only going to get 300 responses because we're doing 300 responses of these other neighborhoods. you go where the calls come
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from. the great debate i have with those that are advocating that this is disproportionate, impact, i did npr this morning, the interview started off with targeting minority communities with quality of life. i took great affront at targeting. we don't target. we go where the calls come from. we go where the illness is. >> rose: there's also the relationships between the communities between police and neighborhoods. have you been able to do what you want to do or is that an open ended question with much work left to be done? because you have said that challenges will take years to achieve. >> let me speak to the city of new york briefly. on the issue of crime, we've clearly shown with crime down 25 straight years, no american city can nature that, 80% less than it was 25 years ago. we're there in the sense of precision policing on crime. we're there on preventing the city against the act of terrorism or reresponding quickly if we have one.
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i see this morning where london is imlating in the 550 person unit we created for counterterrorism we're creating a 500 person unit heavily with their issues. >> rose: that's with the -- >> london is now immuno lating that. in the area of technology because we had spent in equipment, safety for our officers and training, nobody is doing more than we are doing here. the fourth area for 400 years there's been a problem in our country racial relations in the role of police with the original slave catchers and during segregation we enforced that. that is still the unresolved issue. >> rose: why is that? because now we have video and it enhances the violence against individuals. in some cases. it looks uncalled for.
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>> you used the term it looks uncalled for. we have a term in policing it's awful and it looks awful. any police use of force to overcome the resistance of a person being taken into custody looks awful. any use of force. what we clearly have seen in some instances that police force is inappropriate. but most police, vast majority of use of force by police is in response to people resisting arrest. ironically in the state of new york it is illegal to resist arrest but the vast majority of videos i see of my officers are actions in which they are being very vigorously resisted as they attempt to make an arrest. that problem seems to lead to , does there need to be training and sensitizing of police officials even in new york city
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where there's reform under way. >> definitely. we are going to be spending tens of millions of dollars and already spent tens of millions of dollars on retraining the whole force. this past year, the whole force went through a three-day training period. this year the three-day training period will focus on implicit bias, will focus on police legitimacy, procedural justice. all the issues in the forefronted of trying to resolve more successfully issues of racial tension, minority concerns about the police. >> rose: define for us implicit bias. >> implicit bias is a relativey new term in the last several years. all of us have biases that we might not even recognize. they are below the surface. and sometimes that implicit bias may in fact control actions that we take. in the area of race is the idea that we might have an implicit
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bias where we respond to a black than we would to a white. what we're going to try to do is teach our officers that it's like original sin. we all have it, but we can control it if we recognize that we have it. and that it's the idea of changing an unknown bad habit. we all have things that we do that we're not even aware of. >> rose: i'm interested in what explains a case where it may be implicit bias. it may be something else. beyond somebody resisting arrest as we would come to understand it. i mean it is uncalled for clearly if somebody's walking away is it not. >> some of the videos are irrefeuftably inappropriate in south carolina where the gentleman was 30 feet away from the officer somebody fired half a dozen times at him. that was clearly under any circumstances inappropriate
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certainly. >> rose: how about the garner case. >> it's been resolved in the department, it's been resolved in the criminal courts. it is currently being battled out between main justice and the eastern district here in new york. it's the case of mr. garner who during an attempted arrest succumbed to what we believe to be one of the issue was a potential choke hold. i can't comment more specifically because not me but now my successor jim o'neill will end up administratively making a determination, was it inappropriate conduct on the part of the officer. we made those decisions on that because we're on hold until the feds finish their investigations. >> rose: how are you about what happened in dallas and baton rouge. >> in our pleases uniform were murdered in direct response to the garner incident.
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a gentleman traveled up from baltimore with intention of killing officers in regard to the garner incident. there was in the forefront of the newspapers today and issues in america. we are aware and concerned about that. i just spent in the last month $7.5 buying ballistic helmets very similar to what our military wear and 6,000 heavy duty vests that officers would wear over their existing vests that are capable of stopping a rifle from an ar-15. the "new york times" did a major piece on providing training of officers. that unfortunately is the state of american policing in terms of the terrorist threat that we have to be prepared for, the active shooter, what we've seen in paris. the potential, what we saw in
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dallas and baton rouge. >> rose: back to terrorism and john miller within the deputy commissioner and our friend sean miller, terrorism and intelligence. is the most troubling issue the idea of the lone wolf because there's no connection necessarily to intelligence intelligence reporting. >> prior to 2014, we were concerned with in our country mass shooting lone wolves. we saw that in aurora colorado, columbine was the first of them. but then with the growth of isis in 2014, john miller and i are coming in with nypd, isis uses social media encourages and seeks to, we have three terms that james comely the fbi director coined, a direct attack which they would send as they did in paris agents out of syria in an attack in which they give instructions to an individual and how to carry out one. and an inspired attack where just social media, grab a knife, grab an ax, get a car.
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and we've seen repeatedly where people will respond to that. that inspired act is the most difficult. how do i identify, unless you spot from social media constant scan scanning. when you see something radicalized or starting to act strangely, report it. >> rose: we have access to the computer files of people who do these things often they are killed in the act of the terrorism or the mass murder. what are we learning? is there profile of them? >> there's no one consistent profile. there are various thing that might set them off. the individual that spontaneously attack four of my uniforms, three officers standing on the corner with a hatchet, almost killing one of them before he himself was killed by soaferl -- several of the officers. that individual started off focused on his computer on black
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sites, if you will, in terms of black supervision sites. at some point about a month before the attacks switched over to the isis al-qaeda sites. so his motivation went from one of race to now one of religion. and so his circumstance is different than, say, somebody else's. there's probably not a constant theme other than the fact that john miller's used the term that engaged in these acts because they want to feel empowered, they want to feel that they're belonging to something. it's reflections, particularly isis comes out, it's a manifestation of battle. so these are people who are searching for identity, searching for a cause. so if there's a commonality, it's those three themes. valor, belonging and being inspired. >> rose: there's a federal investigation of corruption in the department. what's that about and how large a worry is it for you?
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>> there's actually two investigations, two separate entities, two separate occur at the same time. we are collaborating very closely, my internal affairs division with the federal agencies, the f.b.i., u.s. attorney in the southern district. and the one investigation involves illegal sale of gun licenses by my gun licensing unit. that one has been very contained. we've got the identification of the individuals involved in that police officers and the people that obtained permits inappropriately. the second investigation is of a different nature in which a number of officers, including senior officers of the department, deputy chiefs which is about the fourth level down in the organization, it's been alleged with four arrests that some of them were distributing police favors in exchange for trips, access to prostitutes. very egregious violations of their responsibilities.
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a number of others that the activity while inappropriate has not risen to the level of a criminal indictment or arrest. a number of those individuals have retired from the department and that when they retire, many on the losing of quarter million to half a million dollars in back pay because they are being pushed out the door early. others that remain will be subject to administrative charges for their inappropriate conduct. so as of right now, i think we have four individuals who have been arrested. i think in excess of 10 have retired. and another half dozen or so are under active investigation. >> rose: you have been a high profile police commissioner. kelly was a high profile police commissioner. is that helpful? >> in new york city, you can't help but be high profile. the media capital of the world. that's the reality of it. if you're not comfortable dealing with the media you don't want to be a new york city
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police commissioner. you have to be able to sit and talk with charlie rose. you have toet in front of 20 cameras when there's a major incident. you have to deal with two tabloids that are constantly seeking to put the department on the fronted page hopefully with good news but very often with not so good news. i have to chuckle whether people choose commissioner kelly, myself or predecessors are being high profile that it comes with the job. >> rose: so you're suggesting that commissioner o'neill will be as high profile as you and ray kelly has been simply because it goes with the job. >> different personality but he will try to, with my staff, bob my chief of dominicans is -- detectives is all over the news. i don't want it to be the face of the nypd. i want the public confidence that it is a team. and jimmy has had now great preparations over the last two
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years because he has handled a lot of these press conferences, interviews. so he's already practiced at it. i had a lot of practice through the years, boston, new york, l.a., back here. i enjoy it. i like to give a take. >> rose: when you took this job, you came in and john miller came in and joined you as deputy commissioner for intelligence. and terrorism. when you took the job, what did you hope to accomplish? what was the standard that you want to establish. >> in the four areas we discussed, one dealing with crime to show that crime could continue to go down. >> rose: and it has. >> and it has and will continue to. to deal with the controversy at that time around stop, question and for example. my belief that the department was in fact doing too much of it, that we could do less of it and still keep crime going down. and that has been accomplished. we had as many -- >> rose: so you did less stop and for example.
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>> that's right. in other words, much more precision policing. this year there were 15,000. about 20 to 25% of those result to arrest and summons which means we're stopping most of the people a large part of time. the third area i wanted to advance the department was this whole embrace of neighborhood policing i call it back in 1975 in boston that jimmy o'neill has taking ownership of, and that would be the hallmark of his administration. police and community together with new ways of policing. the other area was technology, that the 21st century in policing is all about technology. blessed with a city with great economy, lot of tax revenue. the mayor gave me almost $2 billion to spend on the nypd. huge amounts of money. >> rose: with 1300 officers. >> we're also at the equivalent of almost a thousand more than that because we've been hiring
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civilians. we're hiring 700 cadets who will eventually become police officers. it's an incredible quote. >> rose: let's talk about the relationship with bill de blasio. did you know him well when you took the job. >> i did not along with several of the mayoral candidates in the run to that election in 2013. i advised them, gave them my thoughts on stop question and for example for example. i was fortunate enough that he gave me a second by the bite f the big apple. i have profound respect of his support, me and this department. my greatest regret is that he is not respected or appreciated for that. >> rose: why do you think it is. >> i wish i knew because i'd like to search that problem. the bill de blasio i know cares about his cops, the extent that out of the resources he has, he has been extraordinarily generous to us. safety issues, cleaning up the police precincts for the first time in a hundred years.
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the most modern equipment in american policing. so the guy i know, the guy whose not intrusive into my management of the department, who is inquisitive but not intrusive. >> rose: who knows. you know the police, you know him, you know the community. >> you and i travel in some of the social circles we hear all the time and i say to him times these people are pretty wealthy people. what has he done to you. crime is down. taxes hasn't gone up, your social status channel changed. why is there visceral dislike. i can't figure out because the person i had the privilege working with had given me such responsibility but also given me such authority as a result of i think my being able to leave with my record in tact of having significant change on american policing. >> rose: and fed into the emotion -- >> it very seldom happens. it happened for me in l.a. because they did the same thing
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there. >> rose: what happens when you make a choice other people leave because their future is not there. >> well for example, he's being encouraged to hire a chief from dallas who did such a great job in that officer situation, this one or that one. he understood the difficult of running nypd, took a year up to speed. why interrupt the momentum to bring in a stranger when you have several people that are very capable of keeping and moving down the track without interruption. >> rose: before i believe bill de blasio, though, this was a moment at which he came to speak at a funeral. and police turned their back on him. >> that's unfortunate. i spoke out about that. it was an awful time in the city's history, an awful time in my 45 years in the business. i still regret very much the actions of new york city police officers was inappropriate, particularly at a funeral. >> rose: why did they do it? >> these a significant dislike in the part of the rank and file
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of the nypd for this mayor. >> rose: why that? why is there dislike on the part of the rank and file of the nypd. >> i don't know. >> rose: you're the commissioner. it's your job to explain to your rank and file, in part. >> my job is to keep crime going down, keep the city safe. >> rose: in addition to that is also, i would assume, some sense of motivating, being a sense of voice for the people who work for you, at the same time being some sense of communicating to them what you see as a reality. >> i think i've been a very active voice on their behalf in term of the response of this mayor to their needs. there is a multi-year contract issue that's been unresolved that is a source of great deal of resentment particularly on the part of the leadership of the union. but in terms of i think i have done a very good job trying to deal with the deck i was dealt
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in terms of a mayor who the police do not like for a variety of reasons which i don't fully understand. it had to do principally with comments that the mayor made. >> rose: early on. >> he's on a mixed race marriage, marriage with an african american women, he has mixed race children. he made a comment at the time we were dealing with a horrific murder of our two detectives advice he gives to his son about dealing with police. and every african american i've ever dealt with, including many whites, talk about advising their children in dealing with the police, to do certain things, which is effectively don't put your life -- >> rose: the talk. >> the talk, if you will. >> every african persons whether it's the 1 percenters down in the basement. particularly the union president at that time took offense of that comment because at the time it was being made when we were still in the process of grieving and burying the two officers who
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had just been murdered. and the comment was from the union president that the mayor had blood on his hands. and cops often times in response to their union leadership, sometimes more response in the sense of their commissioners and chiefs. and they responded to that allegation in a way that i thought was very inappropriate that i think most people thought was inappropriate turning their back on this well-intended individual, well-intended in terms of his instructions to his son and well intended for the safety of the police officers. there's a disconnect and one of the frustrations i have when i leave office that jimmy will have to try and address is this gulf that still exists between my mayor and my cops. i think we have been able to move forward despite that with the continue reduction in crime, continued reduction in citizen
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complaints from my officers and all you expect in the department that's occur, what is not occurring is respect for the mayor of this city. >> rose: two last questions. number one, legacy. will it be what you have done to reduce crime or will it be in a sense what you have had to deal with when you came here for your second term to the big apple, as you say. in terms of reform. >> i'll leave the legacy issue to the historians because as we know it's usually best determined at a distance. and in terms of my own sense of self, that i think i have played a critical control in american policing over these 45 years, particularly over these last 25, in helping to move it into an embrace of community policing, neighborhood policing. embrace of better use of technology and embrace of sir robert peale's principles. >> rose: 1819. >> 1829. if you read those nine they are
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more appropriate today than they were back then. i think i played a very significant role along with jack maple and 35,000 new york cops back in the 90's on showing america -- >> rose: we all remember jack maple. >> something could be done about crime. governor cuomo, mario cuomo, the first governor 1989 when he was being considered for president, he made a comment when i was coming in from chief of transfer police, worse crime in the thousand of country. when asked about crime made a comment which is very unusual for the governor because my sense of him was always an optimist about what government could do. something said to the effect well maybe this is as good as it gets. 2200 murder in the streets of new york, people shot. what we proved is cops matter and how do they matter we believe we could do something about crime and we did it. all the sociologists were saying
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it couldn't be done, that police could have no impact on crime, we had to change racism, the economy. you talk about where does it begin and i believe and maybe it's a reflection of my personality, it begins with optimism that you can in fact do something. and in the late 80's, we have given up that we could do anything about crime. i did not. i really believed, i love my profession and believed we could do something about it. and we did. and it began with optimism. it was certainly neighborhood by i think leadership. it was also neighborhood by a lot of very smart dedicated people thinking about the issue we did it and continue to do it and 25 years laters it's still going down. >> rose: you made your way to this table a number of times. when you came in, you said to me i just love public service. i love public service. that's the reason i'm doing
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this. you're leaving public service. you're moving to go work for a private advisory firm, which has its clients, huge corporations which face all kinds of huge contemporate having to do with shooters and having to do with hacking, a whole range of new problems and whatever the advisor firm tenio did you will be heading up a risk group there. >> that's right. >> rose: why was this the place you chose to go. was it beyond the money to leave what you said was so in your blood, public life. you had defined your reputation. you had done everything that most people knew in your role as a public servant. >> two things happened this past year, charlie, that my father
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passed away after an illness. and if that illness had continued, i would have been in very significant financial difficulty trying to arrange for the best of care for him. i'm not a person of means, that i worked that public sector most of my life. i have several relatively small pensions from several of those assignments. and to take this job, i was giving up at the time a significant seven figure income. and you know, over the last several years this job has cost me a million dollars a year. when faced with my dad's situation, i realized how fragile my financial situation was for me and my wife. but also i want to be able to take care of my grand kids, their college needs. i want to take care of my needs,
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my wife's needs as we go into our 70's which is not too far away. i have to leave something i love into something that is also going to be interesting and challenging. but financially, able to allow me to have a degree of comfort that i cannot have in the public sector that i can take care of my wife and i as we go into an older age. but that i can also take care of my grand kids who i love dearly and be able to take care of them with $100,000 a year college tuitions. i have that, new challenges, taking skills in new environments i'll find interesting with a company that i've researched extensively that is extraordinarily talented people working with some of the smartest people. i will still stay away and mindful and potentially engage in the public debates, if you will. and if asked for advice, will be happy to give that. >> rose: you're always welcome at this table. thank you for coming here. >> thank you, i appreciate it.
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>> rose: bill bratton leaving the new york state police department after 45 years of service as a police officer beginning in 1970. thank you for joining us. we'll be right back. >> rose: donald trump's presidential campaign is one of the midst in one of its most difficult challenges. the candidate spent the last five days reeling from disparaging remarks. the family of a soldier killed in iraq 12 years ago. on tuesday richard hannah became the first member of congress to publicly support hillary clinton. meg whitman hewlett-packard ceo and top gop fund raiser and former candidate said she would actively campaign for clinton's candidacy. joining me from washington is al hunt from bloomberg view. i am pleased to have him always on this program. al, let me just begin with the mood in washington and around the country as you talk to republicans in both places. >> i think more and more
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republicans think these last five days you just allude to charlie are really seminal moments and we've had a lot of supposedly near fatal times for donald trump. this they believe is different. i really may be the guns of august, if you will. the gold taking on the gold star family, the tasteless purple heart episode the other day, criticizing kelly and mccain. donald trump i know is beyond repair. these are not distractions, this is him. the bump that hillary clinton got out of this convention is going to be a permanent and maybe growing bump. >> rose: so what they can do? >> well, there's very little they can do. there's actually conversations which jonathan karl first broadcast about what happens if trump gets out. i think the odds of that happening are about 95% again. but already republicans are talking about the rules they have to apply for the rnc, who they would turn to which is a
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sign of their desperation. but there's little they can do, there's nothing they can do to force him out. >> rose: they had no influence on him. >> i don't know who has influence on him, charlie. i don't think these people i'm talking to have any in fluence on him, clearly the congressional and other party leaders don't have any influence and i doubt very much that the paul manafort's in the world have any influence on him. >> rose: they have no ability to either change his mind or even suggest alternatives. >> i think someone who have said to him if they could get through and he would listen to them three or four days ago you don't want to have a battle with a gold star family. cut your losses and get out. that's not what donald trump does. they would have said to him don't attack paul ryan and john mccain, that's not what a presidentual candidate does. i don't think anyone really gets to him. today i saw newt gingrich said
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his campaign is being self destructive now and it has to get back on course. the problem with that charlie is i think this is the course. >> rose: in other words, it hands to do with the essence of who donald trump is and how he thinks he succeeded so far, both in life and in politics. >> yes. what is he, 70 years old. he thinks his work is going very well. there's dispute about how wealthy he is but clearly he's not on food stamps and he got the nomination. as he said, he beat a big big field. the problem with that self analysis of trump's is that he does have fervent support among i don't know 30 to 40% of the public. but every day he seems to alienate those others. and i think that richard hannah, the congressman from new york republican won't be the first office holder to say they're going to vote for hillary clinton. there will be i think just a
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slew of other ceo's in addition to meg whitman, mark cuban this week and look for some really high ranking former national security officials to say it's a bridge too far. >> rose: there's also this i think. john mccain and paul ryan have primaries, very difficult for john mccain and paul ryan i assume will win rather easily. donald trump has refused to endorse them. i mean that seems to be beyond the pale in terms of politics, in terms of need if not having a battle or feud with a family. i mean these are people that have endorsed him. >> well it puts them in a terrible dilemma. you're right about ryan. kelly up in new hampshire has a primary a month from now which makes it very difficult for mccain or the senator from new hampshire to break ranks totally with trump. i think their advisors to some of those republicans saying do you know something he's giving you an opportunity. now is the time to say fine he's not for us we're not for him and
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they might be better that way. but when they have a primary and the right is as strong as it is in some of those areas, that's something they can't do right now. and john mccain, it would be, whatever your politics, charlie, it would be a great tragedy if john mccain loses his last race because of donald trump, a man who really is the antithesis of everything mccain is. but that's the way it's looking right now. >> rose: who had his own feud with mccain. >> yes, absolutely. yeah. >> rose: so there's no one that can go to donald trump and say please stop. there's no one likely to be able to in a sense, lead a republican revolution against trump at this stage. >> well, i think the only people who might have influence with him and i'm not sure they would exercise or what kind of exercise would bring to bear would probably be his children. that's not to say for a moment
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they would say hey dad you've got to get out. i don't think there's any other politician that can come close to doing that. of them he's really disassociated himself with. so paul ryan can't go there and mitt romney can't go there, jeb bush can't go there. so what they're talking about is, when he said this last couple days the election's rigged. that's really a perplexing statement. borrow the only way that makes sense is if you want to set the predicate for either saying it was illegitimate that's why i lost or as i mentioned a moment ago, the very unlikely event you decide i'm getting out because this whole thing is rigged. that's what some of these republicans that i've been talking to are saying okay what do we do then. how do we pick another nominee. what they basically say there's no good choice these no way we win in the unlikely event that occurs but it might be better than what we have right now with him. >> rose: what might they do. what is the early thinking what they might do. >> well, it all goes to the
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convention confers authority on the rnc, republican national committee. and if something called rule 9, i won't bore your viewers by that rule 9, but 168 remembers of the rnc, it's not clear what rules and regulations they are bound by and they would have to pick someone to fill in. the options would probably be three or four. mike pence to just step up, not a great choice. mitt romney would drive the trump people crazy, ted cruz, unpopular with a lot of elements of the party. john kasich would be the more electable but unacceptable to the right but there's no good options. >> rose: and no paul ryan. >> i think after the last couple days ryan would drive the people as crazy as mitt romney would. >> rose: what about the president of the united states saying that the candidate of the republican party, the nominee of the republican party is not fit to be president? >> i don't think republicans
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like that because they think that's going to make some hard core conservatives just dig in all the more because they're against anything that obama says. so in that sense, it was selfish but it's what a lot of people say. i mean, i've had both republicans and democrats say that you know, in 2000, if this is a democrat talking, i didn't think w. as qualified to be president but it didn't worry me for the sake of the country. and people on the other side saying people in 2008 i felt obama really lacked the reckless experience and knowledge to be president but i didn't worry about the country. there are people now serious people who say that the possibility of donald trump in the whitehouse really really worries them about the country. i've never heard that before, charlie. >> rose: meg whitman a republican who ran for governor of california said, he is a dishonest demagogue, demagogue. >> you can't get much tougher than that, can you.
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although she's not alone. norm coleman the former center from minnesota said the same thing, you know, a few weeks ago. i think privately, john mccain probably says things a lot tougher, maybe a lot earthier than what meg whitman has said. i do think there are going to be others who say it too. what can trump do? well what trump could do is what the mitch mcconnel's and paul ryan's want him to do is get back and talk about issues. hillary clinton by herself has not had a great four or five days. she had a mediocre interview on fox news last weekend. there are reports about syria using chemical weapons and reports about cash tan first to the iranians last year. there are issues that would hurt her if donald trump weren't dominating the news by attacking gold star mothers and fathers. >> rose: there's some difficulty with obamacare all kinds of issues that republicans might be talking about but
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they're not because the candidate is talking about a gold star family. >> that's just what drives the congressional, and the notion that this is the establishment. yeah it is, but it's a lot of republicans who just say this is an election that matters, and there are issues that are important and certainly one of those issues, you know, is not to attack a gold star mother and father. >> rose: at the same time there are those people who say, we don't really know how big the movement is that donald trump has tapped into. and how large it is, how wide it is, how deep it is. and how well it will come out for donald trump. can he expect to do better than we might assume within the constituency he has. >> well that's certainly a fervent constituency and we learned that in the primaries. what was it he said one time if i went and shot someone on fifth
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avenue i wouldn't lose any votes. i think among that if if fervt following 40% would be with him no matter what. the problem is you don't win an election with 40%. it's very hard to see what he's doing is going to appeal to those if you will meg whitman type gop members, the former governor of and form governor and independents and soft democrats. he has to got 45 at least to win this election which means to go well beyond his base. >> rose: if you were him could you imagine anything except wait for the debate and assume you can hit a home room at the time -- run at the time of the debate. >> that's scheduled for september 26, and if you have days like this it won't matter. >> rose: al hunt. thank you.
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>> thank you charlie. >> rose: next we'll talk about bob costa from "the washington post." >> rose: joining me is now bob toss from "the washington post." glad to have him back at this table. let me understand from you because of your reporting, where do you think this campaign is as it concerns donald trump. >> the khan family and this whole episode represents something that's unprecedented because trump has a public opponent that's unusual for trump. this is a family that's a gold star family. i was with them on monday night here in washington. they don't travel around with handlers, they're not really partisan figures even though they did speak at the democratic convention. so it's presenting trump with some fresh challenges about how to really act as the nominee. the question whether this is pivotal, this is hotly debated especially within the republican party because we've been watching donald trump for over a year how these controversies double up almost daily. and he seems to still be
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competitive. perhaps he could be doing better the thinking goes here in washington. but because of the winds, the political wind sweeping the country, populism for change, he remains competitive so there's this open question whether it really matters as much as it says. >> rose: it's not just the khan family, it is warren buffett, it is a range of people saying not fit, a range of people saying at long last, that kinds of thing. it seems to me that there's the coming together. i'm asking the question, how strong is this convergence of all these things. >> it's powerful and it's especially powerful because the democrats fall in their convention have gotten a bit of a bounce. i think what we have to remember at the heart of this campaign with donald trump is not an ideological project. he's not really making an argument in a political way. this is an isolated candidate, a defiant candidate who operates
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hour by hour really without the advice of his advisor. he has advisors like paul manafort but this is someone navigating the political terrain on his own. it's an unusual strange situation for his party which is tagging along but it's this one candidate, this person dominating and deciding moment by moment. >> rose: does he ask questions, does he go out and say you know, is this going too far or do you think i should, i mean sometimes you seeim responding and the khan family is a perfect example of that. in the beginning he did not talk about the heroics of the son, an american hero. he didn't talk about a lot of things. he came to that. and it's different. he's now trying to explain russia, ukraine and a whole lot other issues. >> i mean, there's so many issues, it's almost hard to keep track of everything, every new controversy, every new problem
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for the trump campaign. he continues to kind of move forward. the way trump deals with this, he deals with it publicly. the thing i found reporting on trump there's not a lot of back room conversations as you would have in a real campaign that's a traditional campaign let's say where you would have memos and different strategy meetings. trump deems with things publicly and sometimes people who are close to him don't hear about what he's thinking or his new strategic direction until he says it on a cable news show or at a rally. he's just always traveling, always on his plane or up on the 26th floor office operating, thinking, watching television, reacting, going on twitter and being in the cycle where he ything can propel him forward. >> rose: i hear from you saying you have watched him as long as any good reporter has i think and do it as well as anybody. you haven't seen donald trump change. i mean he has accumulated victories. he had a convention in which he wrote, had made a 70 minute speech, but you haven't seen him
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change. he is the person operating on the same behavior that you saw from the very beginning. >> he's very resistent to change. he's not the one who wants to change at all. i think this is the disappointment that cascades throughout the republican party. there's always this hope that he could change, that he can be packaged into something that's a little more appealing to suburban voters. the republicans have made him the nominee and they just don't know how to deal with it in many respects. i think it's very telling how speaker ryan and leader mcconnel are dealing with the fallout from the khans. they want to distance themselves but not rescinding the endorsement. it's a dance that no one's comfortable doing. >> rose: at the same time there's a concern they have if worse comes to worse the senate will be affected and the house may be affected. >> that is a real conversation here in washington. i was on capitol hill this morning and ran into some republicans and they say if
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trump continues down this path of operating alone, of welcoming controversies rather than trying to comment, of tang eling with opponents that aren't necessary to have as an opponent the question then becomes when do people really start to break away from trump not just distance themselves away from trump. the republicans don't want to entertain that publicly too much from now. people are issuing statements who say they're still with trump in spirit but they don't really want to support trump. it's getting to a situation that's out there. yet trump come out with a tweet on monday supporting paul ryan's primary challenge. paul ryan the speaker has a primary next week in wisconsin and ryan is stuck with trump but the trouble campaign tells me that trump's very unhappy in some ways that ryan has not been full throated in his support. all of these things happening pushing things away from trump even though they're trying to hang on in the idea of trying to keep the party unity alive. >> rose: how deep and how wide is the movement that trump has in a sense accepted as his
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reason for being? >> it's wider than any party. i mean it includes some bernie sanders supports. it includes some libertarians. the most important voter in this movement when i travel around the country is the previously disengaged voter. they are almost a non-partisan voter but they've given up. not just on the political process but they've disengaged from civic society they don't really follow politics. and trump in this movement of populism that's been out there has lit a fire to have them maybe come back to the process, come back to civic life. at least for the tweeting time in 2016. if that is a real coherent voting block, then trump, regardless of the polls will have a shot in november regardless of all his mistakes because that's a huge block. there's so much of the country who rarely vote, if they come to the polls in droves that changes everything. >> rose: what's your best evidence that trump may be able to pull that off? >> it's not evidence based on
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his political organization or his strategy, it's because of the times and the expansion of that movement. the failure of institutions to get, to make people feel happy about how they are living in america, to feel better about their lives, their children's lives. it really cuts across both party lines, and i've seen it everywhere i go, people are just frustrated with the country at large not just with a specific party. and trump may be the benefit of that but he's not entirely making an overture to them in a straightforward way every day. he's a symbol of someone who is an outsider an interloper outside of the establishment and elite class however people want to describe it. >> rose: i'm hearing you clearly. my question was how large and deep and you said wide and deep. my second question is, are you saying these are people who are not voting now or simply are frustrated now. >> i think it's people who
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haven't voted for a long time. people who set out in the 2008 and 2012 elections in rural areas. this is the working class voters trying to get the white working class number higher than it's ever been. so it's partly the working class but it's also the trump campaign believes even though the memos don't show it, they think they could do better with minority voters because of what trump represents. >> rose: bob costa thanks so much for joining us. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh
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>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide.
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man: it's like holy mother of comfort food.ion. kastner: throw it down. it's noodle crack. patel: you have to be ready for the heart attack on a platter. crowell: okay, i'm the bacon guy, right? man: oh, i just did a jig every time i dipped into it. man #2: it just completely blew my mind. woman: it felt like i had a mouthful of raw vegetables and dry dough. sbrocco: oh, please. i want the dessert first! [ laughs ] i told him he had to wait.